I’m so glad you brought this topic up. The Mixergy cylinder was on my list when I was originally researching for my heat pump installation. I thought it was going to be the bees knees in terms of getting the best out of my system. I did hear from some heat pump installers that it wouldn’t be worth it and I’d be best sticking the a standard unvented cylinder. Thank you for clearing this up. Makes me feel better that I made the correct decision by getting the Vaillant cylinder that matched my heat pump. Keep up the excellent content as always Adam. 👍
I've had a mixergy heat pump cylinder coming up for 3 years now, I do feel like they are better suited for standard gas or electric homes. It works well enough but you don't really get the stratification benefit. I do use variable tariff but don't really feel i needed the mixergy app & technology to acheive that. It's still basically a good quality cylinder that does the job, but as the video says - shop around if you're in the market for a tank with a heat pump, keep it simple. Great channel ⭐💯
I've been living with one of these for a couple of years. The single best thing about it is the super accurate temperature gauge and it's display. The top down thermocline electric heating also works really well. On our 250l cylinder you can get it from zero to 5% charge in less than 10 mins. A 5% charge will do you fine for a 10LPM shower for 3 mins. Even with 1% charge you are still getting good hot water out of it. Because we know exactly the state of charge we really only heat water on demand now. I schedule a small heat just before our known normal use periods. If you need a bit more it is really easy to boost from the gauge or the app. This way we never have heat sitting there gradually leaking away. This works well for us as we've got a home battery and PV array so we are only ever powering it with free or cheap rate energy. We currently space heat from a log boiler which is also connected to the tank. This works but you loose the benefit of the top down thermocline heating as the stove is connected via a plate heat exchanger and the circ. pump stirs the tank up. This means an indicated 5% charge means the whole tank is at about 30 degrees rather than the top being at 45 and the rest at 18. This in turn means that you need to get the charge level higher to get acceptably warm water which in turn takes more energy. You would get the same issue connecting a 3rd party heat pump to one of these. I wonder if the IHP tank does thermocline heating as effectively as the immersion version. If it doesn't my current setup may actually be more efficient overall for my use. If you are into smart home stuff these are great - they integrate with home assistant really well and give nice data on charge level, top temperature, bottom temperature power use and calculated hot water volume use. Our family of four uses about 4kWh for hot water daily with this arrangement.
I have mixergy, but i was aware of the need to charge the whole tank to 100% before i bought it. The solar diverter is very good. When the heat pump goes in an time of day tariff i will fully charge as thats the quantity of water i need.
I’m a heating engineer who installs both mixergy and unvented cylinders. My personal opinion is that the mixergy’s are too over complicated and gimmicky. Customers need one app for mixergy and then use another for their smart thermostat if used with a standard boiler. From my experience i just cant get enthusiastic about them, more expensive than standard unvented and more to go wrong.
Not sure I understand your point about the HP having to run at a fixed higher flow temp? I have a Mixergy cylinder with a Vaillant HP, plus a load of temperature sensors for monitoring. It takes around 45 mins to heat up to 50 degrees, and I can see the flow temp gradually ramping up from 20 deg up to 58 deg over that period. I have a load of graphs if you're interested?
I think the point is that if ASHP controller doesnn't get any feedback via a tank temperature (and instead it's a fixed 20C when there is demand) it's going to work harder and ramp up faster but less efficiently, than if this feedback loop was in place. I have same setup as you; efficiency is impacted a fair amount by starting % charge and this dictates how much time it's working at lower temp.
@danmfeist Interesting point - I've not looked at how the behaviour changes with starting charge. It's not true that it doesn't have any feedback though. The HP knows the return temperature for the heating loop. It looks like it ramps up the flow temp on the basis of that measurement, maintaining a delta T of maybe 4 to 6 degrees of the course of a run. I'd guess this isn't hugely different to a normal cylinder where the HP isn't going to see anything happening until enough water is heated to hit the NTC pocket.
@@SimonKey-psimonkey You observations match mine exactly. I'm just trying to understand the point in the video about this, but still not really getting it. From my experience flow temperature is a function of return temperature and return temperature is a function of UVC temperature and coil size. I also observe that this is all controller seems to care about, and it ignores any configured flow temps or offsets anyway.
@@danmfeist with the vaillant HP you can set the max time it takes to charge the tank up. You can also set the start times in the schedule so theres no problem using an off peak tariff, plus you would charge it right up to 100% on cheap rate surely? THats what I do anyway.. my cop for dhw since march is 4.1, admittedly the coldest months are yet to get thru.. The mixergy does seem complicated but it works well and the app is very good. (i dont have one for the vaillant). There is also the option to use the immersion but why would you, that's "only" 100% efficient :-)
I like the idea of the temperature gauge. I'm sick of worrying if I have enough hot water for a shower or not. (Had it run out a few times). Is there anything else like that on the market with similar? I just want to see how much I have!
My Daikin EDLA 11kW installed by Octopus with a Mixergy is on the same heatpump monitor site (Cambridgeshire location - view?id=86 - data from November 7 2023) - can't share a link here it seems. I have a Mixergy from 2018 and a new/ replacement Plate Heat Exchanger and new Heat Pump Interface provided in 2022 when hooking up the Daikin heat pump. Works great, get good CoP and does not use fixed flow temp (return temp tracked and flow increased gradually, maintaining a 5C dT.
@@HeatGeek I’m not so sure, as the “Maximum” (under tank settings logged in as Installer on the Daikin MMI) shows flow temp configured (48C) is ignored what that data shows as it’s clearly going to ~55C at the end of the ramp up. Data is on heatpumpmonitor FYI Interesting to figure this out!
@@HeatGeek Why is a higher "target" flow temperature an issue if the "actual" flow temperature still increases gradually with UVC as @stephencrown82 observes? Because it means compressor works harder and therefore reduces efficiency, or something else?
I have a Granny Annexe, with a bathroom including a shower, small kitchen plus an outdoor kitchen. I’m looking for a stand alone hot water solution. Would you recommend a mixergy iHP? The heating is air to air heat pumps for the building. Love the videos, I’m doing a self build but unfortunately no heat geeks available in my area so having to fumble through it myself. Cheers
Thank you Adam I've been saying this from day 1 when the cylinders came to market for Heatpumps. The every thought of having to butcher sensor cables and wire into a variable resistor to ghost the heatpump into thinking it needs HW and not only that on some heatpump apps the HW setting are useless because you need to use the separate app
I'm interested in doing a heat pump with a sun amp heat battery instead of having a cylinder. Is there an efficiency gain here or are you better off with a cylinder?
Wouldn't the heat battery store the heat energy for longer (potentially days) while the cylinder would need topping up daily. It might take more to charge the battery initially but with it holding heat longer and potentially heating more water than the equivalent cylinder (that may need recharging) do the efficiencies not level out. Interested to know and hopefully described my thinking correctly.
@@baxta If you use hot water you need to put the heat back in. Charging the sunamp with heat won't be as efficient as charging a cylinder with heat. The losses from modern cylinders (especially at lower storage temperatures) and the Sunamp are small compared with the heat needed to heat the water in the first place. Unless you can't fit a cylinder...fit a cylinder...and spend the rest of the money saved on a better installer / better heat pump / larger radiators etc.
Also I've been enjoying the hot water on demand from combi boiler compared to running out of hot water with a cylinder and figured the heat battery was the nearest option to the combi so I like the theory of it but cannot find real world info on running one compared to other options.
Buy the marketing kool aid if you prefer that to the answer given@@baxta It somebody could provide data but chooses not to provide data this probably tells you all you need to know about Mixergy / Sunamp vs Cylinder. ;-)
It would be great if you considered doing a video on thermal stores vs unvented cylinder, you don’t have to worry about legionella with the thermal store but are there any drawbacks compared to unvented?
isn’t another advantage of the mixergy that you can use hot water right down to the last bit - where a regular cylinder will dilute with cool water so if you have quarter of a tank left, a regular HWC might be only warm but the mixergy is still fully usable?
Yes, they use an improved (patented) inlet diffuser. This isn't covered in the video. This is better than the average cylinder, but I don't know how it compares to the better alternatives. This works well in practice based on our experience.
Not sure if i missed it but could you do a review video on the heat pump water cylinder all in one tanks? I've got a cellar but not much space for an external airsource heatpump so i'm thinking that all in one tank might not be a bad idea, believe mixergy might also do those too and some other brands like Daikin
You mean a boiler with integrated heat pump on top? Mixergy now also has one. If they just run on air of the room they are in, the room needs to be of a certain size and you still might need to add heat to the room at times. What is great is that it will decrease the humidity, which is great for most cellars. You might also run it in a way that it outputs the colder air out of your home.
Is there any sense in having a cylinder with built in heat pump like the vaillant and a separate heat pump for the heating? If so would I still be eligible for BUS if the cylinder was installed prior to claim? As a Techi I love the idea, but not sure how it fits into the picture.
Since you mention the stratification. Can you make a video ont this with a normal tank? It appears that in my current setup filling the bath is disturbing the layering too much resulting in too cold water at the end of the fill. More details on my current situation: 280 liter tank. Around 50 degrees with the sensor mid tank. Bath 200 liter. Filling it up with the thermostatic faucet at full speed till the bath is full.
Hi, I am a all electric 3 bed bungalow. I would like ti fit a mixergy in the loft, to gain some space, getting rid of the cold tank. I have been told by two of the plumbers I have asked, that I must have the cold feed in pipe upgraded to 22mm. As at the moment it comes into the stop cock, and up to the tank in 15mm. Have been told that the pressure is goid, just short of 3bar, and the flow rate is good. Do I need the upgrade??
Hi Adam great video! The water volume meter is an interesting idea, how does it work? Will you have a video on it? I'm guessing you say that as long as a certain volume has been used within a certain period then a legionella cycle is not required? Does it communicate with your HP control unit?
Plumbed dishwasher into hot supply and my 'hot fill' washing machine is a flexi pipe from kitchen tap to washers powder draw. Done that for years. Cost next to nothing!
Have a 250lt megaflo cylinder. Boiler flow temperature is set at 55C. The water in the cylinder is at 50C when the thermostat stops calling for heat. We have had it for six years and recently I popped my scope camera inside and looks like brand new. Absolutely zero limescale. Only shiny stainless steel without any corrosion (probably because we have never used the immersion heater) Do I need to replace it if I have a heat pump installed?
Some time ago I watched your viewpoint of the Tado system and decided that was the one to go for. I am a veteran and now a pensioner who suffers with Complex PTSD, so my brain no longer works anything like it used to sadly. I now find everything difficult especially my Tado system. Can I ask you questions about Tado on here or elsewhere or simply bugger off if you want me to. Regards Chris
We live in a 1960's bungalow so the inner walls are either brick or breeze block, I cannot remember. We are OAP's and I was recently diagnosed with Complex PTSD so I have bad memory and real issues with anything technical like Tado. About 5 years ago we replace the original gas boiler from when the bungalow was first built with a Worcester Combi Boiler. Couple of years ago the thermostat next to the boiler started playing up and I decided to go for a smart system as everyone was saying that is the way to go, aah but which one? I did my research online and it came between Tado and Hive. People on the internet were saying go to your channel for a really good assessment of smart systems and having watched one of your updates, which I cannot seem to find we went for Tado. First thing is I contacted loads of local plumbers and they either said "Don't touch Tado" or "Don't know anything about Tado, never had to fit one" So that's not a very good start so I found a plumber who said although he had never fitted one he would have a go, as it cannot be much different from anything else on the market, how wrong he was. Now we have two zones, one is the new new kitchen extension which has underfloor heating. The other zone is the rest of the bungalow which has radiators. Our plumber had awful problems wiring it up to the boiler and that he had to keep phoning Tado did not help matters. In the end he had it working. I was having the problem of getting the Wireless Temperature Sensor to talk with the Internet Bridge. Tado advertised distances when I made my purchase of the wireless range and they also said that it would bridge enough for a 3 floor house. I notice that has all gone now mmmm. I personally take it as a lie as we only live in a bungalow and nothing would connect. Good thing I had the foresight to have ethernet put in the bedrooms as that is where the Bridging Unit is. In the end I managed to get everything connected, in range and working 🤞 In September 2022 we had a fault with the boiler, minor leak which ruined some electrical connections, this was repaired and since then it has worked perfectly. Last Friday for some unknown reason radiators would not get hot, always happens on a Friday. Over the weekend I tried to make out what was wrong, sent a long chapter and verse about the issue to Tado on chat and waited till Monday for a reply. Wonderful service not. My Tado app on my mobile stated that everything was connected and battery power was good on devices requiring battery's. Tado got back to me and it was a question one day which I would reply to and then nothing until the following day when they would ask another question which I would reply to. Everyday they kept asking for photographs of the wiring which I kept sending, asking did I install it myself which I kept on answering. Then finally they said it sounds like a connection issue and gave me loads about what to do when I have already said the system says everything is ok. I thought they could check from their end how the connections are. This is the third time we have gone without heat when it has been freezing outside. With this one its five weeks in total, I think they are hoping we will freeze to death. My plumber is no longer getting back to me as I think he is totally pissed off with Tado, I do not blame him. I really do not know what to do, Tado help is a total waste of time. Must admit that since I have had Tado and had access to the forum which I wish I had seen before I would never have purchased this system. You should have a read, very enlightening but soul destroying aswell. Surprised they were allowed to sell this over here to be honest. So another cold night for the missus and me, only get warm when we go out in the car. Regards Chris
I was planning on going the Mixergy route with current gas boiler and thinking it would be heatpump ready for when I eventually get one. Any advice on a particular cylinder that could be fitted now on a gas boiler that is also great for a heatpump + solar pv connection please?
Good evening I'm a heating engineer and have installed a few heat pumps etc. I have been back to service a unit today and it showed a cop of 5.11 for the December period upto date. I wanted to know how I would go about getting this on the website you mentioned on a different video.
The IHP concept seems quite like the thing my neighbour has, an Atlantic Explorer, which is a tank with a heat pump on top. I've been wondering about such a device but it worries me that when the end of the life of the tank or heat pump is reached, you end up swapping out two bits of kit instead of one. I was also thinking though that you could opt to switch the cooler output air to indoors in summer to keep the house temperature down and vent outside in winter.
Interesting idea on the air-conditioning there. The heat pump on the iHP is fully detachable so you could just replace the heat pump part as long as there's one that fits. It might be possible that you could revert it back to a standard hot water cylinder if you remove the heat pump, you'd have to ask the manufacturer about that though
The iHP concept differs from existing ones like the Atlantic Explorer, because it is detachable, which is great when one of them reaches the end of lifetime. And the iHP has the layered storage, whereas existing ones heat the whole tank en take ages to get hot again. So with the existing ones like the Atlantic, you need to make sure the size of the boiler is big enough to handle all the demand in one morning or one evening as it won't be able to add anything useful on short notice.
Thanks, be interested to hear your views on domestic heat storage via Caldera etc gaining lots of interest/subsidies. Just seems like 1960s electric storage radiator tech with a new label and low COP.
@@HeatGeek a bit like filling up a thermos flask with hot tea in summer and hoping it will still be hot in winter....better to store the electricity and run a heat pump imho.
Hi, I have a heat pump and was looking at Mixergy offer, thanks for producing this video has helped me enormously and will now go for a standard HWT. What make of HWT would you recommend for a heat pump?
Wowww Adam nice ! Are you calculating kWh in to tank (coil) using the Sonnet heat meter and then using water meter for volume and specific heat cap of water , inlet water temp , outlet water temp to work out heat kWh out of the tank to decide when to recharge ...Sweet
I’ve got an existing system with a 500l thermal store heated by a wood burning boiler and a gas boiler. I’m replacing the gas boiler with a heat pump. I would like to retain the thermal store as a giant buffer to store off peak heat from the heat pump - and to retain the wood burning boiler. Most heat pumps are not set up for high low temps when electricity is 4x cheaper. This is getting complex before solar and batteries are added… (Hot water will be a new separate cylinder preheated by the thermal store…) Suggestions
I have a similar setup with combi boiler and wood boiler. I'd stick to that combination as I think it's the most efficient one. Do you have solar panels (PV)?
@@MarkEvans-j1w I will be getting 10kw of solar and powerwall - and think this will make the heat pump a viable option together with time of use tariffs. But the heat pump controllers are not setup for cheap nighttime electricity. Keeping the wood burning boiler and thermal store is difficult with a heat pump - so I’d stick with what you have got unless you get solar of batteries. I’m using the thermal store as a giant buffer tank for the heat pump and wood burning boiler via the solar coil.
Two quick questions about Vaillant systems...I have the standard Setup with a 45l buffer, the Unitower and the 5.5KW Monoblock. What I am still figuring out is the pumps. The underflooor heating has it's own pump, that can do something like 3000l/h or so if it were running flat our (which would be overkill) and the heat pump has a built-in pump that goes up to 860l on Auto, but can go up to 1500l when manually set to 100%. I would love to know where the "sweet spot" is when setting both these pumps up. The one for the underfloor heating unfortunately doesn't how how many l/h it is moving, so synchronising it wilt the internal Vaillant pump is pretty much guesswork. Any hints you can give me? We have about 150m2 of underfloor heating and a very well insulated 2009 house.
Your manifold flow rate bulbs should tell you the flows. Or at least the return flows from UFH. Add them up and you have your ballpark. Slower flows will alow the floor to soak up heat over longer cycles of flow/return
@@richardmobius9610 Thanks. That's definitely helpful, though those little flow meters are not exactly precise...but if it's the only thing I can work with then that's what I will do.
Was starting to wonder where you went......... Been waiting on an update on your new HW Cylinder that you had manufactured by Newark Cylinders for months!!!!!
A much simpler and more efficient option is an indirect cylinder with twin coils and each coil controlled by a mzv, connected to a high efficiency gas boiler. All vertical cylinders will, via the laws of ohysics, have hot water at the top and, without a destratification system, have cooler water at the bottom. The Whole cylinder needs to have its temperature raised to >60 Deg.C if your concerned aboug legionnella. Then have the highest level of cylinder insulation that you can afford, plus insulate the hot water drawoff. We have used Gledhills bespoke cylinders for this product. Accurate control and pgramminv is also valuable, but varies greatly between different housholds.
I'm planning on mixergy and a Tepeo ZEB zero emission boiler, instead of a heat pump. Linked to solar and battery storage. Not sure what to do now. Would you recommend zeb over heat pump. 🤔
I was just about to write a ‘what about’ comment when you mentioned the iHP that I’m curious about. Have you reviewed this product at all? I can’t find many detailed reviews on t’internet. I’d certainly be interested in hearing you expand on ‘looks absolutely fantastic’ as this seems to be the first of its kind?
There are a few other "all in one" heat pump hot water cylinders available in the UK. However, the iHP is different in that the top HP section & the bottom tank can be separated for easier handling & installation. Also, if the top HP section develops a fault it can be removed for repair or replaced without disturbing the bottom cylinder section. Other HP all in one tanks are sealed units so if the HP packs up or the condenser springs a leak then the whole tank has to be replaced. I'm also interested in the iHP together with a Sun Amp thermal store. The Sun Amp could go in my airing cupboard to replace my existing tank but not the iHP due it's operating noise level. iHP would have to go in my attached garage or possibly in my loft space - loft hatch not big enough though. Pros & cons for both so perhaps more ammo for the Heat Geeks to get their teeth into in other videos.
What is the most efficient boiler flow setup and range rating for a regular tank. I have range rated to the tank coil (17kW), set to 50oC storage but don't know if too low a flow delta will be less efficient. Default is 70oC flow.
Yes, it doesn't use the external heat exchanger, it just heats the top directly. Same if you would just use the electrical version that also only heats the top first.
Is it possible/sensible to use a shower pump with a HW cylinder filled with water from an ASHP? We have a gravity fed system at the moment, and the shower pressure is disappointing to say the least. Thanks!
Hi Adam, really love this channel. My property has 2.0 bar/40LPM and I've been advised this would prevent me from installing a Mixergy Cylinder with my gas boiler?
Can you share some information on Legionnaire’s in terms of how water use and temperature are related? You had mentioned in the video measuring water use to prevent LD at the lower water temps. How long does stagnant water at 45 C does it take?
@@rosstret to be fair that's within host cells. It takes 2 hours for a legionella phagosome to double within a host organism cell. Within water it's said to get to problematic levels in two weeks. You can't post links on RUclips to help block spam. Google legionella generation time in water.
I got a Daikin Altherma 3 R F heat pump. I got the heat pump set on weather dependent curve. The problem is that the heat pump is set on a south facing wall. Any sun I get gives the heat pump a false reading of the outside temperature. Any help would be appreciated. Bob.
Just swapped my combi boiler for a heat pump and couldn't afford the extra cost for the Mixergy cylinder I wanted. Sounds like I would have been wasting my money anyway! Lucky escape! 😬
Interestingly, my CO2 heat pump heats from the top down - as I understand it, CO2 works more efficiently with a lower input temperature so it takes from the bottom and puts the hot water in the top. It heats until it’s 60 degrees C at a point a bit below half way and makes sure that happens at least once every 24 hours to avoid legionella. It’s all running from solar (year round, almost all the time), and takes only 1-2 hours from 10am so I’m not worried about slightly less efficiency from the high temperature (I’d rather avoid the bacteria).
So you are using Mixergy with the small top coil? I did that for a while, efficiency not good at all! Mixergy sprays cold water into the top of the tank, yes, but the ASHP still works at high-temp all the time.
@@danmfeist No, this is a Reclaim Energy system which is an Australian brand, but the heat pump is a Sanden (Japanese) unit (although I think the changed to Toshiba more recently). But I think the Sanden setup works in much the same way.
@@stephengentle2815 Ahh. These look very interesting. They claim a COP of 5 while still giving you top-down partial heating, is that what you get? Have to read more. When I tried this with Mixergy, was lucky to get COP of 2.
Obviously what you say makes sense. Using a regular cylinder is less expensive and more efficient with a heat pump. So why are so many installers putting in the mixergy. I didn’t have a single quote that didn’t include a mixergy. For the likes of Octopus who are trying to keep costs ,and hopefully complexity , down it would seem a no brainer . I’m awaiting an install, do I need to go back to them to discuss this. I need the simplest system possible , because although I’ve committed to getting the heat pump I am very worried about the running costs ( electricity) and the maintenance costs ( for annual and ad hoc servicing). The more complex the higher the risk and the cost! Help!
Hi, really interesting video. Thank you. I’m investigating ASHP options. Currently have a Gas system boiler with a 300L thermal store. This runs radiators, UFH and mains pressure Hot Water via a plate heat exchanger. Heat is also added by a wood burning stove back boiler and Solar Thermal. I’m looking to replace the thermal store with a better insulated 500L cylinder with an internal coil for mains pressure hot water (no worries about legionella) with the wood burning stove/back boiler. Would probably swap the solar thermal for PV, as this would be more flexible with an ASHP. Question, how much less efficient would a thermal store heated from an ASHP be than a standard Z/S plan hot water tank. 😀
Ok having watched your video a few times and raised queries, this is where I am at. Help! My suppliers are proposing a mixergy rather than a regular cylinder. This is what they said. “Basically the manufactures state with the normal unvented cylinders they best work with a water pressure working rate of 1.5 and a flow rate of 22 litres per minute. From our survey, your water pressures came out at a 5.0 standing pressure, 1.2 working pressure and a flow rate 0f 15 litres per minute. The mixergy cylinders manufacturers state they work better for lower working pressure under 1.5 all the way down to 1. Hence why we have assigned the mixergy cylinder with your heat pump. We believe following our guidelines and the manufacturers this will be the best for your individual circumstance.” Are they right?
No that makes no sense what so ever. Worth noting they’ve made a significant upgrade to the sensors since this video which will improve its performance.
But you’d argue that a regular cylinder would still be best? Can’t see BG going for one of your specialty ones. But I’m also working on the assumption that if all the kit comes from one supplier then post install maint costs should be lower and one shouldn’t get the “no its your heat pump thats the problem, “”no its your cylinder”issue. Have you done an episode on post install maint?
I think they got a lot of publicity through fully charged when solar diverting was very popular and the gimmick seemed credible. I fell for it too and was thinking I'd get one. Next up sunamp?
Erm, no. When a heat pump is commanded to supply hot water to the circuit that heats the tank, it doesn't suddenly hit the max outlet temperature the heat pump can supply. It can't - too much heat energy is lost to the relatively cool water in the tank, whether by coil or plate heat exchanger (as used by Mixergy). The overall efficiency is the same. Title is pretty misleading too 👎
The Thermocline surely must be like a vacuum flask inside the tank otherwise any heat inside it would immediately dissipate to the rest of the cylinder. The added complexity of this system when working in conjunction with the complexity of a heat pump will never be understood by anyone - even a heat pump installer!! Hot water for taps is mostly unnecessary these days as dishwashers and washing machines use cold and an electric shower is very economical. Baths are banned in my house and I have an inline electric heater for my morning shave!!
I just feel that Mixergy is an overcomplicated solution,... just throwing more technology at the problem. So while it makes savings on efficiency, at what cost of planet resources.
I’m so glad you brought this topic up. The Mixergy cylinder was on my list when I was originally researching for my heat pump installation. I thought it was going to be the bees knees in terms of getting the best out of my system. I did hear from some heat pump installers that it wouldn’t be worth it and I’d be best sticking the a standard unvented cylinder. Thank you for clearing this up. Makes me feel better that I made the correct decision by getting the Vaillant cylinder that matched my heat pump.
Keep up the excellent content as always Adam. 👍
I've had a mixergy heat pump cylinder coming up for 3 years now, I do feel like they are better suited for standard gas or electric homes. It works well enough but you don't really get the stratification benefit. I do use variable tariff but don't really feel i needed the mixergy app & technology to acheive that. It's still basically a good quality cylinder that does the job, but as the video says - shop around if you're in the market for a tank with a heat pump, keep it simple. Great channel ⭐💯
Got our tank last year, no regrets.
I've been living with one of these for a couple of years. The single best thing about it is the super accurate temperature gauge and it's display. The top down thermocline electric heating also works really well. On our 250l cylinder you can get it from zero to 5% charge in less than 10 mins. A 5% charge will do you fine for a 10LPM shower for 3 mins. Even with 1% charge you are still getting good hot water out of it. Because we know exactly the state of charge we really only heat water on demand now. I schedule a small heat just before our known normal use periods. If you need a bit more it is really easy to boost from the gauge or the app. This way we never have heat sitting there gradually leaking away. This works well for us as we've got a home battery and PV array so we are only ever powering it with free or cheap rate energy. We currently space heat from a log boiler which is also connected to the tank. This works but you loose the benefit of the top down thermocline heating as the stove is connected via a plate heat exchanger and the circ. pump stirs the tank up. This means an indicated 5% charge means the whole tank is at about 30 degrees rather than the top being at 45 and the rest at 18. This in turn means that you need to get the charge level higher to get acceptably warm water which in turn takes more energy. You would get the same issue connecting a 3rd party heat pump to one of these. I wonder if the IHP tank does thermocline heating as effectively as the immersion version. If it doesn't my current setup may actually be more efficient overall for my use. If you are into smart home stuff these are great - they integrate with home assistant really well and give nice data on charge level, top temperature, bottom temperature power use and calculated hot water volume use. Our family of four uses about 4kWh for hot water daily with this arrangement.
Would be good to see a similar analysis of the sunamp heat battery system.
Would love a video from you guys on phase change batteries such as Sunamp and your views on them.
Due in next couple weeks
@@HeatGeek appreciate your work thank you
Hello sir will you be able to look on Tepeo ZEB boiler???
Are you planning to do the SunAmp video as well?
I have mixergy, but i was aware of the need to charge the whole tank to 100% before i bought it. The solar diverter is very good. When the heat pump goes in an time of day tariff i will fully charge as thats the quantity of water i need.
Hi, we have a mixergy iHP installed. Feel free to reach out you feel like doing some data reviewing and extra content.
I’m a heating engineer who installs both mixergy and unvented cylinders. My personal opinion is that the mixergy’s are too over complicated and gimmicky. Customers need one app for mixergy and then use another for their smart thermostat if used with a standard boiler. From my experience i just cant get enthusiastic about them, more expensive than standard unvented and more to go wrong.
I was close to getting one, but I decided just to stick to vaillant
It's basically a B rated. I looked to but at £1500 just for tank. Only spending £7pm in summer for gas hot water and gas hob so I never save anything.
How does the HP get the HW to 70 degrees as you mention?
I thought HP flow temperatures were not capable of this with circa 50 deg flow…..
@@markpowellmp you’ve been listening to outdated sources.
@@markpowellmp buy a vaillant mine gets close to 80c flow when heating the cylinder
Not sure I understand your point about the HP having to run at a fixed higher flow temp? I have a Mixergy cylinder with a Vaillant HP, plus a load of temperature sensors for monitoring. It takes around 45 mins to heat up to 50 degrees, and I can see the flow temp gradually ramping up from 20 deg up to 58 deg over that period. I have a load of graphs if you're interested?
I think the point is that if ASHP controller doesnn't get any feedback via a tank temperature (and instead it's a fixed 20C when there is demand) it's going to work harder and ramp up faster but less efficiently, than if this feedback loop was in place. I have same setup as you; efficiency is impacted a fair amount by starting % charge and this dictates how much time it's working at lower temp.
@danmfeist Interesting point - I've not looked at how the behaviour changes with starting charge.
It's not true that it doesn't have any feedback though. The HP knows the return temperature for the heating loop. It looks like it ramps up the flow temp on the basis of that measurement, maintaining a delta T of maybe 4 to 6 degrees of the course of a run. I'd guess this isn't hugely different to a normal cylinder where the HP isn't going to see anything happening until enough water is heated to hit the NTC pocket.
@@SimonKey-psimonkey You observations match mine exactly. I'm just trying to understand the point in the video about this, but still not really getting it. From my experience flow temperature is a function of return temperature and return temperature is a function of UVC temperature and coil size. I also observe that this is all controller seems to care about, and it ignores any configured flow temps or offsets anyway.
@@danmfeist with the vaillant HP you can set the max time it takes to charge the tank up. You can also set the start times in the schedule so theres no problem using an off peak tariff, plus you would charge it right up to 100% on cheap rate surely? THats what I do anyway.. my cop for dhw since march is 4.1, admittedly the coldest months are yet to get thru.. The mixergy does seem complicated but it works well and the app is very good. (i dont have one for the vaillant). There is also the option to use the immersion but why would you, that's "only" 100% efficient :-)
Can you please do a video on SunAmp Batter; was trying to understand if it is efficient enough.
Totally agree, there's so few RUclips videos on sunamp.
On paper it looks a really good proposition
A great video and has now set me staright on the Mixegy tank,
I like the idea of the temperature gauge. I'm sick of worrying if I have enough hot water for a shower or not. (Had it run out a few times).
Is there anything else like that on the market with similar? I just want to see how much I have!
My Daikin EDLA 11kW installed by Octopus with a Mixergy is on the same heatpump monitor site (Cambridgeshire location - view?id=86 - data from November 7 2023) - can't share a link here it seems.
I have a Mixergy from 2018 and a new/ replacement Plate Heat Exchanger and new Heat Pump Interface provided in 2022 when hooking up the Daikin heat pump.
Works great, get good CoP and does not use fixed flow temp (return temp tracked and flow increased gradually, maintaining a 5C dT.
It does use a fixed flow temp. Your confusing target flow temp vs actual
@@HeatGeek I’m not so sure, as the “Maximum” (under tank settings logged in as Installer on the Daikin MMI) shows flow temp configured (48C) is ignored what that data shows as it’s clearly going to ~55C at the end of the ramp up.
Data is on heatpumpmonitor FYI
Interesting to figure this out!
@@stephencrown82 two things going on here. Max flow temp and heat source saturation. Too much for yT comments but it’s targeting a fixed flow temp
@@HeatGeek Why is a higher "target" flow temperature an issue if the "actual" flow temperature still increases gradually with UVC as @stephencrown82 observes? Because it means compressor works harder and therefore reduces efficiency, or something else?
@@danmfeist because it causes a higher ramp up than necessary.
I have a Granny Annexe, with a bathroom including a shower, small kitchen plus an outdoor kitchen. I’m looking for a stand alone hot water solution. Would you recommend a mixergy iHP? The heating is air to air heat pumps for the building. Love the videos, I’m doing a self build but unfortunately no heat geeks available in my area so having to fumble through it myself. Cheers
Thank you Adam I've been saying this from day 1 when the cylinders came to market for Heatpumps. The every thought of having to butcher sensor cables and wire into a variable resistor to ghost the heatpump into thinking it needs HW and not only that on some heatpump apps the HW setting are useless because you need to use the separate app
Where is the update on the video with Roger re. Johns easy fix heat pump system ?
How long does it take to fit a weather comp sensor ?
I'm interested in doing a heat pump with a sun amp heat battery instead of having a cylinder. Is there an efficiency gain here or are you better off with a cylinder?
Cylinders more efficient. Sunamps don't require unvented inspections or discharges. (can suit landlords / flats better)
Wouldn't the heat battery store the heat energy for longer (potentially days) while the cylinder would need topping up daily. It might take more to charge the battery initially but with it holding heat longer and potentially heating more water than the equivalent cylinder (that may need recharging) do the efficiencies not level out. Interested to know and hopefully described my thinking correctly.
@@baxta If you use hot water you need to put the heat back in. Charging the sunamp with heat won't be as efficient as charging a cylinder with heat.
The losses from modern cylinders (especially at lower storage temperatures) and the Sunamp are small compared with the heat needed to heat the water in the first place.
Unless you can't fit a cylinder...fit a cylinder...and spend the rest of the money saved on a better installer / better heat pump / larger radiators etc.
Also I've been enjoying the hot water on demand from combi boiler compared to running out of hot water with a cylinder and figured the heat battery was the nearest option to the combi so I like the theory of it but cannot find real world info on running one compared to other options.
Buy the marketing kool aid if you prefer that to the answer given@@baxta
It somebody could provide data but chooses not to provide data this probably tells you all you need to know about Mixergy / Sunamp vs Cylinder. ;-)
It would be great if you considered doing a video on thermal stores vs unvented cylinder, you don’t have to worry about legionella with the thermal store but are there any drawbacks compared to unvented?
Yes it’s much much less efficient as you have to operate at perminent high temperatures
isn’t another advantage of the mixergy that you can use hot water right down to the last bit - where a regular cylinder will dilute with cool water so if you have quarter of a tank left, a regular HWC might be only warm but the mixergy is still fully usable?
Yes, they use an improved (patented) inlet diffuser. This isn't covered in the video. This is better than the average cylinder, but I don't know how it compares to the better alternatives. This works well in practice based on our experience.
Not really.. for most cylinders you feel it quickly drop off.. it’s doesn’t happen gradually
What water meter are you using on your tank?
Not sure if i missed it but could you do a review video on the heat pump water cylinder all in one tanks? I've got a cellar but not much space for an external airsource heatpump so i'm thinking that all in one tank might not be a bad idea, believe mixergy might also do those too and some other brands like Daikin
You mean a boiler with integrated heat pump on top? Mixergy now also has one.
If they just run on air of the room they are in, the room needs to be of a certain size and you still might need to add heat to the room at times. What is great is that it will decrease the humidity, which is great for most cellars.
You might also run it in a way that it outputs the colder air out of your home.
Fantastic information! Mixergy and Eddie where both on my shopping list so now both struck off. Thank you I'm quids-in 👍
I am coming to similar conclusion.
Is there any sense in having a cylinder with built in heat pump like the vaillant and a separate heat pump for the heating? If so would I still be eligible for BUS if the cylinder was installed prior to claim?
As a Techi I love the idea, but not sure how it fits into the picture.
Since you mention the stratification. Can you make a video ont this with a normal tank? It appears that in my current setup filling the bath is disturbing the layering too much resulting in too cold water at the end of the fill.
More details on my current situation:
280 liter tank. Around 50 degrees with the sensor mid tank.
Bath 200 liter.
Filling it up with the thermostatic faucet at full speed till the bath is full.
Hi, I am a all electric 3 bed bungalow. I would like ti fit a mixergy in the loft, to gain some space, getting rid of the cold tank. I have been told by two of the plumbers I have asked, that I must have the cold feed in pipe upgraded to 22mm. As at the moment it comes into the stop cock, and up to the tank in 15mm. Have been told that the pressure is goid, just short of 3bar, and the flow rate is good. Do I need the upgrade??
Hi Adam great video!
The water volume meter is an interesting idea, how does it work? Will you have a video on it?
I'm guessing you say that as long as a certain volume has been used within a certain period then a legionella cycle is not required? Does it communicate with your HP control unit?
Video due
@@HeatGeek Fantastic I look forward to it!
I've ordered a hot fill washing machine and plan to link my dish washer to the hot to keep a high turnover of water and hopefully save money
Plumbed dishwasher into hot supply and my 'hot fill' washing machine is a flexi pipe from kitchen tap to washers powder draw. Done that for years. Cost next to nothing!
Have a 250lt megaflo cylinder. Boiler flow temperature is set at 55C. The water in the cylinder is at 50C when the thermostat stops calling for heat. We have had it for six years and recently I popped my scope camera inside and looks like brand new. Absolutely zero limescale. Only shiny stainless steel without any corrosion (probably because we have never used the immersion heater)
Do I need to replace it if I have a heat pump installed?
Some time ago I watched your viewpoint of the Tado system and decided that was the one to go for. I am a veteran and now a pensioner who suffers with Complex PTSD, so my brain no longer works anything like it used to sadly. I now find everything difficult especially my Tado system. Can I ask you questions about Tado on here or elsewhere or simply bugger off if you want me to.
Regards Chris
Shoot!
We live in a 1960's bungalow so the inner walls are either brick or breeze block, I cannot remember. We are OAP's and I was recently diagnosed with Complex PTSD so I have bad memory and real issues with anything technical like Tado.
About 5 years ago we replace the original gas boiler from when the bungalow was first built with a Worcester Combi Boiler.
Couple of years ago the thermostat next to the boiler started playing up and I decided to go for a smart system as everyone was saying that is the way to go, aah but which one?
I did my research online and it came between Tado and Hive. People on the internet were saying go to your channel for a really good assessment of smart systems and having watched one of your updates, which I cannot seem to find we went for Tado.
First thing is I contacted loads of local plumbers and they either said "Don't touch Tado" or "Don't know anything about Tado, never had to fit one" So that's not a very good start so I found a plumber who said although he had never fitted one he would have a go, as it cannot be much different from anything else on the market, how wrong he was.
Now we have two zones, one is the new new kitchen extension which has underfloor heating. The other zone is the rest of the bungalow which has radiators.
Our plumber had awful problems wiring it up to the boiler and that he had to keep phoning Tado did not help matters. In the end he had it working. I was having the problem of getting the Wireless Temperature Sensor to talk with the Internet Bridge. Tado advertised distances when I made my purchase of the wireless range and they also said that it would bridge enough for a 3 floor house. I notice that has all gone now mmmm. I personally take it as a lie as we only live in a bungalow and nothing would connect. Good thing I had the foresight to have ethernet put in the bedrooms as that is where the Bridging Unit is.
In the end I managed to get everything connected, in range and working 🤞
In September 2022 we had a fault with the boiler, minor leak which ruined some electrical connections, this was repaired and since then it has worked perfectly.
Last Friday for some unknown reason radiators would not get hot, always happens on a Friday. Over the weekend I tried to make out what was wrong, sent a long chapter and verse about the issue to Tado on chat and waited till Monday for a reply. Wonderful service not.
My Tado app on my mobile stated that everything was connected and battery power was good on devices requiring battery's.
Tado got back to me and it was a question one day which I would reply to and then nothing until the following day when they would ask another question which I would reply to. Everyday they kept asking for photographs of the wiring which I kept sending, asking did I install it myself which I kept on answering. Then finally they said it sounds like a connection issue and gave me loads about what to do when I have already said the system says everything is ok.
I thought they could check from their end how the connections are.
This is the third time we have gone without heat when it has been freezing outside. With this one its five weeks in total, I think they are hoping we will freeze to death.
My plumber is no longer getting back to me as I think he is totally pissed off with Tado, I do not blame him.
I really do not know what to do, Tado help is a total waste of time. Must admit that since I have had Tado and had access to the forum which I wish I had seen before I would never have purchased this system. You should have a read, very enlightening but soul destroying aswell. Surprised they were allowed to sell this over here to be honest.
So another cold night for the missus and me, only get warm when we go out in the car.
Regards Chris
@@Chris-BognorRegisat least they answered you
I was planning on going the Mixergy route with current gas boiler and thinking it would be heatpump ready for when I eventually get one. Any advice on a particular cylinder that could be fitted now on a gas boiler that is also great for a heatpump + solar pv connection please?
Call Newark cylinders and ask them for a Heat Geek cylinder
Good evening
I'm a heating engineer and have installed a few heat pumps etc. I have been back to service a unit today and it showed a cop of 5.11 for the December period upto date.
I wanted to know how I would go about getting this on the website you mentioned on a different video.
Open energy monitor dot com
The IHP concept seems quite like the thing my neighbour has, an Atlantic Explorer, which is a tank with a heat pump on top. I've been wondering about such a device but it worries me that when the end of the life of the tank or heat pump is reached, you end up swapping out two bits of kit instead of one. I was also thinking though that you could opt to switch the cooler output air to indoors in summer to keep the house temperature down and vent outside in winter.
Interesting idea on the air-conditioning there.
The heat pump on the iHP is fully detachable so you could just replace the heat pump part as long as there's one that fits. It might be possible that you could revert it back to a standard hot water cylinder if you remove the heat pump, you'd have to ask the manufacturer about that though
The iHP concept differs from existing ones like the Atlantic Explorer, because it is detachable, which is great when one of them reaches the end of lifetime. And the iHP has the layered storage, whereas existing ones heat the whole tank en take ages to get hot again.
So with the existing ones like the Atlantic, you need to make sure the size of the boiler is big enough to handle all the demand in one morning or one evening as it won't be able to add anything useful on short notice.
This needs a Steve Jobs to come along and make something simple that just works.
Thanks, be interested to hear your views on domestic heat storage via Caldera etc gaining lots of interest/subsidies.
Just seems like 1960s electric storage radiator tech with a new label and low COP.
It is but can store for a long time and is very large.. I quite like it to be honest as you can store interseasonally potentially!
@@HeatGeek a bit like filling up a thermos flask with hot tea in summer and hoping it will still be hot in winter....better to store the electricity and run a heat pump imho.
Hi, I have a heat pump and was looking at Mixergy offer, thanks for producing this video has helped me enormously and will now go for a standard HWT. What make of HWT would you recommend for a heat pump?
Wowww Adam nice ! Are you calculating kWh in to tank (coil) using the Sonnet heat meter and then using water meter for volume and specific heat cap of water , inlet water temp , outlet water temp to work out heat kWh out of the tank to decide when to recharge ...Sweet
Do you have a suggestion for the best brand of high quality cylinder which I presume should also have the longest pipe length possible within .
I’ve got an existing system with a 500l thermal store heated by a wood burning boiler and a gas boiler.
I’m replacing the gas boiler with a heat pump. I would like to retain the thermal store as a giant buffer to store off peak heat from the heat pump - and to retain the wood burning boiler.
Most heat pumps are not set up for high low temps when electricity is 4x cheaper.
This is getting complex before solar and batteries are added…
(Hot water will be a new separate cylinder preheated by the thermal store…)
Suggestions
I have a similar setup with combi boiler and wood boiler. I'd stick to that combination as I think it's the most efficient one. Do you have solar panels (PV)?
@@MarkEvans-j1w I will be getting 10kw of solar and powerwall - and think this will make the heat pump a viable option together with time of use tariffs. But the heat pump controllers are not setup for cheap nighttime electricity. Keeping the wood burning boiler and thermal store is difficult with a heat pump - so I’d stick with what you have got unless you get solar of batteries. I’m using the thermal store as a giant buffer tank for the heat pump and wood burning boiler via the solar coil.
Thanks Adam, where can I find info on variable temps with a vaillant heat pumps? Saw a vaillant controller in the video demo
Thanks Adam, good synopsis of the pros and cons of Mixergy and their approach with heat pumps.
What are your thoughts on thremaskirt compared to using wall radiators , heat pump only
Two quick questions about Vaillant systems...I have the standard Setup with a 45l buffer, the Unitower and the 5.5KW Monoblock.
What I am still figuring out is the pumps.
The underflooor heating has it's own pump, that can do something like 3000l/h or so if it were running flat our (which would be overkill) and the heat pump has a built-in pump that goes up to 860l on Auto, but can go up to 1500l when manually set to 100%.
I would love to know where the "sweet spot" is when setting both these pumps up. The one for the underfloor heating unfortunately doesn't how how many l/h it is moving, so synchronising it wilt the internal Vaillant pump is pretty much guesswork.
Any hints you can give me? We have about 150m2 of underfloor heating and a very well insulated 2009 house.
Your manifold flow rate bulbs should tell you the flows. Or at least the return flows from UFH. Add them up and you have your ballpark. Slower flows will alow the floor to soak up heat over longer cycles of flow/return
@@richardmobius9610
Thanks. That's definitely helpful, though those little flow meters are not exactly precise...but if it's the only thing I can work with then that's what I will do.
Was starting to wonder where you went.........
Been waiting on an update on your new HW Cylinder that you had manufactured by Newark Cylinders for months!!!!!
Any news on the Vaillant FluoStore you saw at ISH last year?
@@MagicianManno news..
Great info on the interaction with the heat pump.
A much simpler and more efficient option is an indirect cylinder with twin coils and each coil controlled by a mzv, connected to a high efficiency gas boiler. All vertical cylinders will, via the laws of ohysics, have hot water at the top and, without a destratification system, have cooler water at the bottom. The Whole cylinder needs to have its temperature raised to >60 Deg.C if your concerned aboug legionnella. Then have the highest level of cylinder insulation that you can afford, plus insulate the hot water drawoff. We have used Gledhills bespoke cylinders for this product. Accurate control and pgramminv is also valuable, but varies greatly between different housholds.
I'm planning on mixergy and a Tepeo ZEB zero emission boiler, instead of a heat pump. Linked to solar and battery storage. Not sure what to do now. Would you recommend zeb over heat pump. 🤔
So is your deal with OVO energy on or is it now with Valiant instead of you?
I was just about to write a ‘what about’ comment when you mentioned the iHP that I’m curious about. Have you reviewed this product at all? I can’t find many detailed reviews on t’internet. I’d certainly be interested in hearing you expand on ‘looks absolutely fantastic’ as this seems to be the first of its kind?
No there’s many of these around. They utilise stratification more so I believe though so probably the best of its kind
There are a few other "all in one" heat pump hot water cylinders available in the UK. However, the iHP is different in that the top HP section & the bottom tank can be separated for easier handling & installation. Also, if the top HP section develops a fault it can be removed for repair or replaced without disturbing the bottom cylinder section. Other HP all in one tanks are sealed units so if the HP packs up or the condenser springs a leak then the whole tank has to be replaced.
I'm also interested in the iHP together with a Sun Amp thermal store. The Sun Amp could go in my airing cupboard to replace my existing tank but not the iHP due it's operating noise level. iHP would have to go in my attached garage or possibly in my loft space - loft hatch not big enough though. Pros & cons for both so perhaps more ammo for the Heat Geeks to get their teeth into in other videos.
What is the most efficient boiler flow setup and range rating for a regular tank. I have range rated to the tank coil (17kW), set to 50oC storage but don't know if too low a flow delta will be less efficient. Default is 70oC flow.
As low temp as possible without cycling. Range rate to minimum
Does the IHP (or other built in pump and cylinder combos) addresss the issues raised in this video?
Yes, it doesn't use the external heat exchanger, it just heats the top directly. Same if you would just use the electrical version that also only heats the top first.
Is it possible/sensible to use a shower pump with a HW cylinder filled with water from an ASHP? We have a gravity fed system at the moment, and the shower pressure is disappointing to say the least. Thanks!
Yes. Better to just update your hot water system though
Hi Adam, really love this channel. My property has 2.0 bar/40LPM and I've been advised this would prevent me from installing a Mixergy Cylinder with my gas boiler?
That’s a load of rubbish. Find a different engineer. Use a heat geek Infact. Google ‘find a heat geek’
Was an explainer video like this for ASHP + Sunamp?
Yeh it’s recorded and in edit now.. will be a while though
@@HeatGeek Oh, good to know. Thank you for your work!
Can you share some information on Legionnaire’s in terms of how water use and temperature are related? You had mentioned in the video measuring water use to prevent LD at the lower water temps. How long does stagnant water at 45 C does it take?
Generation time is 2 hours
@@Lewis_StandingWhat do you mean by generation time? Are you saying generation of legionnaires is in 2 hours at 45 C?
@@rosstret to be fair that's within host cells. It takes 2 hours for a legionella phagosome to double within a host organism cell.
Within water it's said to get to problematic levels in two weeks. You can't post links on RUclips to help block spam. Google legionella generation time in water.
Please search for our legionaries video
Video on sunamp thermal stores with heat pump please
Due in a couple weeks
@@HeatGeek*nudge* video please xx
Query Vaillant unitower or veissmann 151-A?
Interesting. Is there any advantage to mixergy when paired with solar PV and a heat pump?
The video answers this. If using SGR connections. No.
I got a Daikin Altherma 3 R F heat pump. I got the heat pump set on weather dependent curve. The problem is that the heat pump is set on a south facing wall. Any sun I get gives the heat pump a false reading of the outside temperature. Any help would be appreciated. Bob.
Can I put a heat pump on a thermal store that is connected to solar and solid fuel
Hence your Newark Cylinder design. 👍
Just swapped my combi boiler for a heat pump and couldn't afford the extra cost for the Mixergy cylinder I wanted. Sounds like I would have been wasting my money anyway! Lucky escape! 😬
You wasted your money getting a heat pump lol. Why didnt you just put in a system boiler with solar coil. Youd be well better off
Maybe worth tying up with "The EV puzzle" guy as he did a video on mixergy.
Was there something specific you think we could get out of it?
Interestingly, my CO2 heat pump heats from the top down - as I understand it, CO2 works more efficiently with a lower input temperature so it takes from the bottom and puts the hot water in the top. It heats until it’s 60 degrees C at a point a bit below half way and makes sure that happens at least once every 24 hours to avoid legionella. It’s all running from solar (year round, almost all the time), and takes only 1-2 hours from 10am so I’m not worried about slightly less efficiency from the high temperature (I’d rather avoid the bacteria).
So you are using Mixergy with the small top coil? I did that for a while, efficiency not good at all! Mixergy sprays cold water into the top of the tank, yes, but the ASHP still works at high-temp all the time.
@@danmfeist No, this is a Reclaim Energy system which is an Australian brand, but the heat pump is a Sanden (Japanese) unit (although I think the changed to Toshiba more recently). But I think the Sanden setup works in much the same way.
@@stephengentle2815 Ahh. These look very interesting. They claim a COP of 5 while still giving you top-down partial heating, is that what you get? Have to read more. When I tried this with Mixergy, was lucky to get COP of 2.
@@stephengentle2815 I think it must be that fact that Co2 ASHP supports much higher delta-t! Can't do these with other refrigerants. Very interesting.
What size coil do you have in your cylinder then Adam.
6m
Can you advise the make and model of your 6m coil cylinder please Adam
Obviously what you say makes sense. Using a regular cylinder is less expensive and more efficient with a heat pump. So why are so many installers putting in the mixergy. I didn’t have a single quote that didn’t include a mixergy. For the likes of Octopus who are trying to keep costs ,and hopefully complexity , down it would seem a no brainer . I’m awaiting an install, do I need to go back to them to discuss this. I need the simplest system possible , because although I’ve committed to getting the heat pump I am very worried about the running costs ( electricity) and the maintenance costs ( for annual and ad hoc servicing). The more complex the higher the risk and the cost! Help!
I don’t know any installers suggesting them personally but am aware of alot of customers requesting them and I don’t think they know why
Hi, really interesting video. Thank you.
I’m investigating ASHP options. Currently have a Gas system boiler with a 300L thermal store. This runs radiators, UFH and mains pressure Hot Water via a plate heat exchanger. Heat is also added by a wood burning stove back boiler and Solar Thermal. I’m looking to replace the thermal store with a better insulated 500L cylinder with an internal coil for mains pressure hot water (no worries about legionella) with the wood burning stove/back boiler. Would probably swap the solar thermal for PV, as this would be more flexible with an ASHP.
Question, how much less efficient would a thermal store heated from an ASHP be than a standard Z/S plan hot water tank. 😀
straight bussin fr
wouldnt the whole water tank just equalise at the average temperature between hot n cold bits ?
It does over time
Most informative, thank you
Ok having watched your video a few times and raised queries, this is where I am at. Help!
My suppliers are proposing a mixergy rather than a regular cylinder. This is what they said.
“Basically the manufactures state with the normal unvented cylinders they best work with a water pressure working rate of 1.5 and a flow rate of 22 litres per minute.
From our survey, your water pressures came out at a 5.0 standing pressure, 1.2 working pressure and a flow rate 0f 15 litres per minute.
The mixergy cylinders manufacturers state they work better for lower working pressure under 1.5 all the way down to 1. Hence why we have assigned the mixergy cylinder with your heat pump. We believe following our guidelines and the manufacturers this will be the best for your individual circumstance.”
Are they right?
No that makes no sense what so ever. Worth noting they’ve made a significant upgrade to the sensors since this video which will improve its performance.
But you’d argue that a regular cylinder would still be best? Can’t see BG going for one of your specialty ones. But I’m also working on the assumption that if all the kit comes from one supplier then post install maint costs should be lower and one shouldn’t get the “no its your heat pump thats the problem, “”no its your cylinder”issue. Have you done an episode on post install maint?
Would be great for your to do a RUclips, on Thermodynamic water heating. I have it in 3 locations
I can but my experience isn’t good
What do you think the best UVC for a heat pump is?
The one we’ve just designed for Newark
When is it released? Do you have any details. Thx
Let's not forget that they're storing and using your data (when you use hot water) in their cloud.
I think they got a lot of publicity through fully charged when solar diverting was very popular and the gimmick seemed credible.
I fell for it too and was thinking I'd get one.
Next up sunamp?
Yep
Your animator deserves a pay rise!
Erm, no. When a heat pump is commanded to supply hot water to the circuit that heats the tank, it doesn't suddenly hit the max outlet temperature the heat pump can supply. It can't - too much heat energy is lost to the relatively cool water in the tank, whether by coil or plate heat exchanger (as used by Mixergy). The overall efficiency is the same.
Title is pretty misleading too 👎
You’ve misunderstood the video. We did not say it does automatically hit the set temp, but it will cause a higher ramp up and this lowers efficiency.
That barnet is a criminal offence.
Love the fake Big Ben as 1:32 ;)
That’s real
@@HeatGeek
😂
Seem the mixergy is an unnecessary expense when installing a heatpump so I’ve cancelled mine. Thanks.
Exergy is your friend
The Thermocline surely must be like a vacuum flask inside the tank otherwise any heat inside it would immediately dissipate to the rest of the cylinder. The added complexity of this system when working in conjunction with the complexity of a heat pump will never be understood by anyone - even a heat pump installer!! Hot water for taps is mostly unnecessary these days as dishwashers and washing machines use cold and an electric shower is very economical. Baths are banned in my house and I have an inline electric heater for my morning shave!!
Looks like junk imo.
If you need a cylinder, just use tried and tested mega flow.
What the hell has happened to the world , when did getting hot water become so complicated.
It’s only complicated when working with smart grid. No one is forcing anyone to do this.
@@HeatGeek just thought it was somewhat amusing that’s all , also like the 400% efficiency heat pump line = dying is easy comedy is hard.
@@KavanOBrienyour saying you disbelieve 400%?
@@roscopeco2000 just repeating what was said, think is somewhat funny .
@@KavanOBrienwhat's funny about it?
I just feel that Mixergy is an overcomplicated solution,... just throwing more technology at the problem. So while it makes savings on efficiency, at what cost of planet resources.
Jeez it’s complicated.
Still don't understand the difference with normal cylinder
Interesting